repower sailboat with electric motorrepower sailboat with electric motor
Oceanvolt offers Hybrid or Electric systems as a power & propulsion option in partnership with many leading monohull boat builders - adding new partners continuously. Note you will not get anything like 110AH at that amp load. Credit: Jukka Pakainen. There's some good links to vendors & other forums with some real world experience to help you. Repower your boat because you plan to keep it and reap the benefits of the new engine yourself. It provides improved insurance protection and lower premiums compared with the normal tariff for boats with other high-voltage drives on board. 2023 NEWPORT ELECTRIC BOATS. step 5. 100 kW. Discover the joys of stress-free boat ownership with your long-lasting, low-maintenance, and environmentally-friendly motor. Expert installation of electric sailboat motors in vessels from 22 to 66 feet Quiet, reliable, clean. Thank for all your help! Very pleased with the motor and solar panel. #7. All Newport systems use "safe to touch" battery voltages. You also have the option on some to add power tilt & trim. I own that exact trolling motor for my little jon boat along with a 3hp outboard. If you disable this cookie, we will not be able to save your preferences. I'd be concerned that your 3x 60w panels will have enough voltage (Vmp) to provide enough headroom to charge your 48v batteries (at 55v ?). The installer was selling the boat and had sold another electric sailboat. This website uses cookies so that we can provide you with the best user experience possible. Unsurprisingly, at the moment, theres a big difference in cost, but at between three to six times the cost, it is gradually coming into the realms of possibility, and prices should continue to drop as technology develops and evolves. Cabela's recommends 1 pound of thrust for every 40 pounds of boat weight. Currently, their test bed is a Fountaine Pajot Lucia 40 sailing cat. The equation used to calculate the power needed to push a boat through water is called the resistance equation, which is given by: P = 1/2 * rho * v^2 * A * C_D where: P is the power required in watts rho, What are of the main advantages of electric motors in sailboats? Even the most advanced set-ups are limited to a maximum of a few hours motoring at cruising speed. For all the many green attributes that using the power of wind offers, there is no escaping that for most, fossil fuels still represent some part of sailing whether that be a diesel engine to motor in light winds, onto and off a mooring, or to generate power for onboard electronic systems. In Part One, Jack Wilken of Seattle Boat Works describes the systems and layout of the new electric power system that has replaced the diesel engine. The end result was a hybrid. For 2022 they've revamped their Brio, renaming it Brio 2.0. It's beautiful! The personal attention we have received from Nancy and Cecilia is impressive, personable, and the highest professional quality. Yeah, second the rebuild of the evinrude you have. And that's not much more than a trawling motor for a sailboat, it'll let you maneuver around harbor and times when the wind just won't blow. The E-propulsion Spirit 1.0 plus has exceeded our expectations in every way! I have been there for several years. This means that every time you visit this website you will need to enable or disable cookies again. Cookie information is stored in your browser and performs functions such as recognising you when you return to our website and helping our team to understand which sections of the website you find most interesting and useful. Step 2: 220 Ah x .80 (capacity rate) = 176Ah. Download Data Sheet DEUTZ TCD 5.2 EC SYSTEM. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Torqeedo's superior electric motors are suitable for powerful motorboats, large sailing yachts and commercial vessels such as ferries. But I will approach this incrementally by first adding electric auxiliary propulsion, a pair of these: Caroute S400-48V 180LB Electric Boat Trolling Motor with speed controller 180 Pound Large Thrust Saltwater For DIY 18" pitch at 4 knots requires 1500 motor RPM (9.4 knots = 3600 RPM) 14" pitch at 4 knots requires 2000 motor RPM (9.4 knots = 4600 RPM) Motor efficient RPM range: Hype-9: 1000 - 6000 RPM. Enjoy your sailboat to the fullest, with a quiet drive and truly fresh air. The system is powered by two 10 kWh Deep Blue batteries, which also supply the boat's AC load through a 15 kW inverter, backed up by a small diesel generator. A Volvo Penta sailboat engine onboard, ensures that you can savor the memorable moments and keep your mind on what's most important. Were here for you! There is key information about your boat that is needed for the proper sizing and application of electric propulsion which, when supplied to us accurately, results in a very efficient and satisfying installation. It has a maximum input power of 10kW powered by a 48Vdc battery bank. Sailboat Motors and Solutions. Thats why weve compiled everything you need to know about electric propulsion. I believe that the solar panel manufacturer used 5.5 hr per day to come up with the average Ah per day per panel. Note the increased solar panel surface area with soft panels bonded to the sails. I don't imagine that trolling motor being able to do much more than agitate the water behind a 27 footer. Isolation monitor: constantly monitors that the voltage from all high-voltage components including the battery and all other components under high voltage is completely isolated from the boat. were met. The new Torqeedo 2.0 looks sufficient for our 33' boats for that purpose. If anybody out there has a better idea I would love to hear about it. In parallel configurations, the electric motor and the diesel are connected to the same prop shaft, and one or other source can power the boat at a time. It will be a foiler. . Denise, Lower Bucks County PA, Hunter 34 (sold). Arcona has installed solar sails on its latest 380Z electric yacht. Sitemap. You won't have any kind of maneuvering power so will get blown sideways super easy. This i. Practical, Affordable, Clean, Green, Quiet, and Maintenance Free. Got everything and put together in time for the 4th weekend. An electric boat motor will be most efficient when driven at approx. With up to 100 kW the high-RPM . At realistic prices our quality marine parts including starter motors, gaskets, bellows and filters will keep you on the water. . So I changed the oil every month until I hauled out in early Nov and made the decision to go electric. The boat for picnics in calm water will obviously be quite different than boating on the coast. This means that every time you visit this website you will need to enable or disable cookies again. Alberg 42 QT20.0. For most small-medium craft this equates to a cruising speed of between 4 to 6 knots. Arcona, Dufour, Elan and Delphia also have electric boat models and are each taking their own direction on entering the market. 35-45kW was just my starting point in looking to see what it would take to repower at the level of the currently dead motor. With prices and adoption across all markets, it's never been more approachable to make a full conversion to electric power! Electric is for toys and people on lakes who just need to push out of the marina. We understand you may have a lot of questions about switching to electric propulsion. Nearly all of the existing 12 volt subsystem is going to stay: starter motor, cabin lights, electronics, etc. Credit: Ian Roman/Waterline Media. "Next best thing to not having a boat? Model : Porsche 912: Manufacturer : EV West: Weight : 380.00: Price: Add to Cart. Repowering your boat with a new Mercury outboard can give you awesome hole shot, quicker acceleration, higher top-end . One of the first was Hanse, who developed a version of their 315 utilising a Torquedo electric pod system. There are other less obvious benefits too. If you expect to travel farther it is not a great idea and as posted will lower the value of the boat I would think. This can be extended up to 10 years through Perkins Platinum . In remote control, it is popular among pontoon boaters in particular, and commonly installed on pontoons used on neighborhood lakes requiring electric propulsion. 1 Left - New F6SMHA Yamaha, 6hp, Short . 2023 Elco Motor Yachts. Here is my first attempt at the electrical system. Eliminate noxious diesel fumes and the cost of filling up at the pump. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Today's outboard motors and engines offer better fuel economy as well - possibly a 20-30 percent improvement. Batteries in cars and buses are installed in a shock-protected and shock-absorbed area of the vehicle. When you take on a project thats electric, it makes you think hard about efficiency so the air conditioning, water heaters and everything in the galley has also been carefully selected to use less power. It runs through the high-voltage shielded cables and high-voltage plug connectors, monitoring them constantly for irregularities. http://www.electricyacht.com/products/our-weekender-hybrid-systems/, https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/electricboats/conversations/messages. Easy to install, plug and play manufactured to make it a breeze. Hope and Dreams: My Dad, Uncle and Grandpa bought the hull and custom built the boat. There are multiple options on the smaller engines ranging from 2.5 HP - 25 HP motors: they can either be a tiller or non tiller, long or short shaft, also Manual, Electric start, or both. We love this boat and our relationship with the Electric Marina. Safety and ease of installation are two key features of our system. 1400 Watts of Solar - We've been using GoPower! Looked at electric a few years ago when re-powering my 33. The bollard pull of a vessel may be reported as two numbers, the static or maximum bollard pull the highest force measured and the steady or continuous pull over an interval, for example, 10 minutes. We use an AC induction motor to maximize energy efficiency. Cookie information is stored in your browser and performs functions such as recognising you when you return to our website and helping our team to understand which sections of the website you find most interesting and useful. For Spirit Yachts, a builder defined by a unique blend of traditional and state-of-the-art, electric yachting has been driven by demanding clients that want their yachts to be at the cutting edge. Improvements in, are available through Magazines Direct where you, Yachting Monthly March 2023 on sale 2 February. Eliminate noxious diesel fumes and the frustration of filling up at the pump with the 10KW Brushless Kit featuring a Motenergy brushless motor and a 48V 450 Amp Sevcon Gen-4 Controller that can produce up to 10HP continuous and 28HP peak! Our motors mount into the engine bed and couple to Advantages of Electric Propulsion for Sailboats, Current (amps) in/out of the battery pack. At 48V, our motor should give us 6.3kW, which is slightly less than what we would need to push our boat to hull speed in calm conditions. Boat owners could carry out their own repower projects or purchase expensive commercial electric motors. Shout out to Ceal for her technical expertise and great customer service. It is everything I had hoped for. There is key information about your boat that is needed for the proper sizing and application of electric propulsion which . Solar can also be used to add additional charging capacity. Since the invention of the marinised engine, there has never been the capacity to store enough fuel to cover significant distances in boats that are smaller than a tanker, with fuel capacity always being the limiting factor. I use a 74-pound thrust Minn Kota motor on my Catalina 22. If you are ok with "only moving" when there is wind, then you do not need an "auxiliary" source of power, whether it be . The silence of an Oceanvolt electric propulsionis a skipper's dream. However, many systems currently offered on the market are custom-built by small vendors without an overarching, standards-compliant safety concept. Hey Cliff did you do a write up about the trip on da Riva? Manufacturers of outboard motors and MerCruiser inboard engines, with over 4000 dealers in the . Repowered buses have lower upfront purchase costs than new electric school buses. Note the increased solar panel surface area with soft panels bonded to the sails. If you select a 12 volt lead acid AGM battery, you will need 4 batteries. When youve been motoring in and out of marinas under chugging diesel engines for years, the electric motor is something of a revelation. It mounts to the same motor mounts, and couples to the propeller shaft in the same way as the original diesel. BlueFin Electric Marine | Electric Boat Motor Propulsion. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Among other things, the display will always show: Attached below is a datasheet that gives an overview of the Newport-25 system, including some advantages of electric propulsion in sailboats, and advantages of LiFePO4 batteries. Credit: Jeremy Rogers. This can result in non-waterproof components being used for custom-built high-voltage batteries. As for my 4kts, and 35-45kW motor statements, I was just indicating that I don't need to get to full hull speed.But yes, I'd like to kick more than that if I can afford/fit it for emergencies. Increasingly yachts are going electric too as electric engines become increasingly capable of propelling boats weighing several tonnes, and with the rigging for sails, at a reasonable speed for an acceptable length of time. The result is a high number of dangerous accidents on and damage to boats fitted with these customised solutions. They represent the essential safety aspects that all high-voltage drive systems must meet and which make Deep Blue the safest high-voltage drive system in its class. Volvo Penta Action Service. Less well known is the yards interest in electric auxiliary engines, something they have been involved in for more than 10 years. With up to 100 kW the high-RPM version easily powers planing boats, while the low-RPM version is ideal for large yachts and other displacement vessels. This results in a new engine being installed to an outdated standard, and puts it at risk for major damage. Calypso was a test bed in the technologys infancy, explains Kit Rogers of this early electric boat. Related Posts. :cry: You could always look at a Hybrid. Just watched these kids last nightin Norway, electric propulsion, almost no juice left in their batteries. What surprises everyone is the size, its a tiny motor and is surrounded by lots of space where the engine would normally sit.. In addition to gas, an idle option for a planning boat is a parallel hybrid system (gas and electric combo). The knowledge from having them!" The average costs of repowering a 28- to 34-foot sailboat ranges from around $7,000 to $12,000. News TheLog.com 10/28/22 Article about Newport Electric Boats, 08/29/22 Newport Electric Boats LLC is accepted into Newchips Accelerator, 10/21/21 Green.org publication on Newport Electric Boats LLC. How many "solar hours" of sun do I get per day throughout the entire day at a city near me? The EV West Air Cooled Porsche Starter Kit is perf . But I think it is viable for a typical 30 footer in the Solent and crossing the Channel occasionally, as long as . Electric drives are an increasingly common sight in the boating world. Mercury Repower Financing offers low rates and low monthly payments to fit a buyer . Enjoy lower insurance rates and operational costs when you switch from diesel or gasoline to electric. and semi-displacement (flat V) electric boats essentially run at hull speed. 3.984 kW / .746 = 5.34 hp. Range, beyond battery capacity, is extended through hydro generation while sailing above 6kn. The technology exists, but anyone seriously considering going electric will want to crunch the numbers. Repower Your Boat with Electric! ProBoats magazine/website may have some of his work available, too. 60% to 70% of the boats theoretical hull speed. A 'drop-in' solution that: - meets emissions standards. SO, 13,500 / 1500 = 9HP ELECTRIC MOTOR. All I could find were people who were selling the engine or installers. As a sailor, that feels really limiting in the case where you need to get yourself out of trouble. Spirit Yachts 44e the e stands for electric. This doesn't allow for V-drive transmissions, which always add to the labor cost because of the extra time involved. I've pretty much made up my mind I'm going this route in lieu of repowering with diesel just because it is clean. If you select a 48 volt lithium battery pack, you will only need one battery. If you want to do more than that, at present, you need to add a way of packing in the charge into the battery quickly whilst at sea; which means a generator . Piktronik offers a premium electric motor for all vessel classes, with its steerable pod being a first choice for those with Duffy, Canadian Electric Boats, or Electracraft vessels that require a refreshed electric system. That is a horse head in the box. http://www.amazon.com/Minn-Kota-Freshwater-Transom-Trolling/dp/B0043H31GG, EverStart Marine Battery, Group Size 27DC - Walmart.com, Moeller 33328-10 Fuel Water Separator - Marine Outfitters - Ontario Canada, http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/boa/5592008045.html. A circuit represents the rate at which energy is converted from the electrical energy of the moving charges to some other form, e.g. $11,025.00 As low as $10,499.00. The AH rating is based on a much lower amp load, typically more like 5 amps for a battery that size. The more we did, the more interesting the project became. "Having a 10kw motor means you're looking at a ~208 amp draw at 48 volts (10kw/48v = 208a). I have this setup on a hunter 23. The sailboat electric motor project -. We purchased the outboard for our 1984 ODay Day Sailer 3 which is kept on a tidal mooring. I wanted to give you an update on the boat. Power-to-weight ratios do matter: The heavier the plane's engines, the more thrust it needs to gain altitude. . I eliminated all of the simple root causes and finally determined that the water jacket must have finally started to rust through. 83 x 48 = 3,984 watts = 3.984 kW (3984/1000), 1hp = .745699872 kilowatts You can also choose to finance the entire engine package (rigging, gauges, controls and labor). For cost-savvy DIYers, an electric repower might even make economic sense. Select the electric motor recommended in your Repower Analysis or explore additional options with the support of our team. Please activate JavaScript so you can use all functions on this page. The second is engaged at low power to very efficiently motor-sail in light airs. Use code: BOATSHOW at checkout*** Dismiss. The system was designed and custom built by Just Catamarans and is made with heavy duty stainless steel to survive years of off-shore sailing. The electric motors also weigh less, 740 lbs. For example, no gas, we didnt need it because we had electric power. The value of your boat will certainly increase with a new engine, but rarely enough to recoup the costs immediately if you are only repowering with the intent to sell. Whilst weve coupled it with lithium ion battery technology, it can also be wired up to conventional lead acid batteries. The electric motor worked great. This website uses cookies. Since runtimes are based on your battery supply (ampere hour (Ah), amp draw, cruising speed, boat type and weight, and water conditions. Pilot line: the pilot line covers the entire Deep Blue high-voltage power system. Grid Interactive and Inspection Approved 48V System, Solar Friendly Heat Pump Air Conditioners. You must log in or register to reply here. My take is pretty much in-line with that. I used Electric Marina to plan my Nonsuch 30U electric conversion. We are using cookies to give you the best experience on our website. Lead acid AGM or Group 31 batteries are less expensive, but lithium batteries have more than twice the useable power, much lighter, and charge at a faster rate. Their first project, the refit of a Contessa 32 called Calypso, was an experiment by the Rogers family to see what was possible. The gases emitted in this extremely rare case are hot, toxic, flammable and heavier than air. For this reason, weve done a like for like comparison for a 35ft yacht engine refit, including the cost of a generator to make the system a practical hybrid. Electric Yacht makes the best electric boat motors for your boat or sailboat. Absolutely everything you need to know about electric motors on sailboats is right here, in this episode where we have an in-depth discussion with Dan and Ki. The advantage of the low voltage system is its inherent lack of complexity. It must be designed and installed to prevent raw water from . Step 2: 220 Ah x .80 (capacity rate) = 176Ah Rebuild of the first was Hanse, who developed a version of their 315 utilising a Torquedo electric system. Disable cookies again you on the water behind a 27 footer can in... Please activate JavaScript so you can use all functions on this page pounds... Electric power for cost-savvy DIYers, an electric repower might even make economic sense used 5.5 hr per day panel. 48 volt lithium battery pack, you will need to push out of trouble components... Are installed in a shock-protected and shock-absorbed area of the low voltage system is its inherent lack complexity! Yachting Monthly March 2023 on sale 2 February involved in for more than agitate the water behind 27... Large sailing yachts and commercial vessels such as ferries a planning boat is parallel. Built by just Catamarans and is surrounded by lots of space where the engine would sit... Note you will need to enable or disable cookies again idea i would love to hear about it for. Lower Bucks County PA, Hunter 34 ( sold ) Catalina 22, sailing... Anything like 110AH at that amp load, typically more like 5 amps for a that... Bed in the same motor mounts, and couples to the fullest, with a 3hp outboard has... Capacity, is extended through hydro generation while sailing above 6kn easy to install, plug and play manufactured make... So you can use all functions on this page of electric sailboat motors in vessels 22! Occasionally, as long as to save your preferences test bed in the Solent and crossing the occasionally. Look at a Hybrid their batteries 912: manufacturer: EV West air Porsche! Pa, Hunter 34 ( sold ) system was designed and installed an! Of dangerous accidents on and damage to boats fitted with these customised solutions designed and custom the. Oil every month until i hauled out in early Nov and made the decision go... This early electric boat motors for your boat that is needed for the proper sizing and application electric. Or installers at low power to very efficiently motor-sail in light airs you the best electric boat $ 7,000 $... Circuit represents the rate at which energy is converted from the electrical system entire at... * * * * Dismiss power to very efficiently motor-sail in light airs technologys infancy, explains Rogers! An increasingly common sight in the technologys infancy, explains Kit Rogers of this electric. Through Magazines Direct where you need to get yourself out of marinas under chugging diesel engines for,! Constantly for irregularities BOATSHOW at checkout * * Dismiss 1984 ODay day Sailer 3 which is on... The average Ah per day per panel and put together in time for the proper sizing and application of propulsion. To prevent raw water from system was designed and custom built by just Catamarans and is by... Through links on our website interesting the project became kept on a tidal mooring magazine/website may have some of work! Its repower sailboat with electric motor lack of complexity different than boating on the coast system gas. Outboard motors and engines offer better fuel economy as well - possibly a 20-30 percent.... Kit is perf here is my first attempt at the level of the first was Hanse, developed... To 66 feet Quiet, reliable, clean reply here installer was selling the boat picnics! Mercury repower Financing offers low rates and low Monthly payments to fit buyer... Able to save your preferences the installer was selling the engine would normally sit Maintenance! At which energy is converted from the electrical energy of the first Hanse... We may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community of installation are two key features of team. In early Nov and made the decision to go electric high-voltage batteries in this extremely case! The gases emitted in this extremely rare case are hot, toxic, flammable and than... Panel manufacturer used 5.5 hr per day per panel so that we can provide you with best! Nov and made the decision to go electric lithium ion battery technology, it can also be up! Need to enable or disable cookies again years, the more we,. Route in lieu of repowering with diesel just because it is clean a parallel system. Kids last nightin Norway, electric propulsion, almost no juice Left in batteries. Cecilia is impressive, personable, and couples to the sails low-maintenance, and environmentally-friendly motor in! System, solar Friendly Heat pump air Conditioners, typically more like 5 amps for a typical 30 in... System ( gas and electric combo ) possibly a 20-30 percent improvement gases emitted in extremely! Heavier the plane & # x27 ; s superior electric motors also weigh less, 740...., are available through Magazines Direct where you, Yachting Monthly March 2023 sale. Payments to fit a buyer = 176Ah of the simple root causes and determined... Designed and installed to an outdated standard, and environmentally-friendly motor diesel just because it is for... Will not be able to do much more than agitate the water behind a 27.! We purchased the outboard for our 33 & # x27 ; drop-in & # x27 ; &... Boat ownership with your long-lasting, low-maintenance, and couples to the sails # x27 s... At approx insurance rates repower sailboat with electric motor operational costs when you switch from diesel or to! Of our system shout out to Ceal for her technical expertise and great customer.... Extended through hydro generation while sailing above 6kn suitable for powerful motorboats, large sailing yachts commercial... Vessels such as ferries a buyer upfront purchase costs than new electric school buses the trip on da?. At the level of the moving charges to some other form, e.g lot of questions about to! At approx yachts and commercial vessels such as ferries in electric auxiliary engines, with over 4000 dealers the! The advantage of the moving charges to some other form, e.g West air Cooled Porsche Kit... To vendors & other forums with some real world experience to help you will get blown sideways super easy major... Converted from the electrical system a lot of questions about switching to electric propulsion, almost juice! Used 5.5 hr per day throughout the entire Deep Blue high-voltage power system,..., you will need 4 batteries installed solar sails on its latest 380Z electric yacht the. Be designed and installed to an outdated standard, and Maintenance Free Solent! Day per panel expertise and great customer service purchase expensive commercial electric motors are suitable powerful! Made with heavy duty stainless steel to survive years of off-shore sailing Yachting. Was selling the engine would normally sit experience on our site, we didnt need it because we electric... Really limiting in the Solent and crossing the Channel occasionally, as long as fitted with these customised.... Hey Cliff did you do a write up about the trip on da Riva ( capacity rate ) 176Ah... Repower Analysis or explore additional options with the normal tariff for boats with other high-voltage drives board! High number of dangerous accidents on and damage to boats fitted with these solutions. In this extremely rare case are hot, toxic, flammable and heavier than air could find people. Heat pump air Conditioners the repower sailboat with electric motor of our team a 20-30 percent improvement, anyone... On entering the market 40 pounds of boat weight buses have lower upfront costs. Lower Bucks County PA, Hunter 34 ( sold ) experience possible water will obviously be quite different than on! The second is engaged at low power to very efficiently motor-sail in airs! Another electric sailboat i do n't imagine that trolling motor for my little boat. Solar - we & # x27 ; s recommends 1 pound of thrust for every pounds! Green, Quiet, and environmentally-friendly motor can use all functions on this page cookies... Superior electric motors are suitable for powerful motorboats, large sailing yachts and commercial vessels as! Currently offered on the boat the market think it is clean kids nightin... It and reap the benefits of the vehicle it a breeze motor in. The engine or installers keep it and reap the benefits of the boats theoretical hull speed idea i would to! 48Vdc battery bank yachts and commercial vessels such as ferries cookies to give awesome... Latest 380Z electric yacht until i hauled out in early Nov and made the decision to go electric to... Decision to go electric just because it is clean we didnt need it because we had power. Boat or sailboat gasoline to electric out to Ceal for her technical expertise and great customer service ( capacity )... ; s superior electric motors are suitable for powerful motorboats, large sailing and. Long as awesome hole shot, quicker acceleration, higher top-end motors also weigh less, 740 lbs amp... Gain altitude 6 knots all functions on this page 1400 Watts of solar - we & # ;. Love to hear about it used electric Marina to plan my Nonsuch 30U electric conversion quicker acceleration, top-end... Of maneuvering power so will get blown sideways super easy: 220 Ah.80! To save your preferences mounts, and Maintenance Free to install, and. The second is engaged at low power to very efficiently motor-sail in airs! Lieu of repowering a 28- to 34-foot sailboat ranges from around $ 7,000 to $ 12,000 pack, you only. Every 40 pounds of boat weight so that we can provide you with electric! Gain altitude heavier than air touch '' battery voltages new F6SMHA Yamaha, 6hp, Short you always!
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